Shamsudeen Adedokun is the founding engineer at Tando, the Kenyan app that lets people spend Bitcoin as easily as cash by bridging the Lightning Network with M-Pesa. He joined through a single Upwork gig, a basic Flutter UI prototype, and grew into running the app’s entire backend and stack. Before Tando, he spent years freelancing on Upwork. On the side, he’s building an indie spending-tracker app and a B2B SaaS for the legal space.
This is the third episode with a guest. The first episode was with Megasley. Last week we talked with Samson about owning your code in the age of AI. This time we go into the story of how a Kenyan startup made Bitcoin spendable for 40 million people, and what building it taught Shamsudeen about reliability, trust, and freelancing your way into a founding role.
Listen on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, YouTube Music, and more.
In this episode, we discuss:
1) The Upwork gig that became Tando
How a basic Flutter UI prototype turned into a founding-engineer role
Why the founders trusted him with the backend, the server, and the money
What “the backend engineer is the life of the company” really means
2) Building Kenya’s Bitcoin M-Pesa
How Tando lets people spend Bitcoin as easily as they spend shillings
Reliability as a feature: the IntaSend outage, and why Tando acquired Splice
Why owning your payment infrastructure matters so much in fintech
3) Advice for freelancers in Nigeria
Putting yourself out there, and getting past gatekeeping and imposter syndrome
Being true to yourself: don’t buff up a LinkedIn you can’t back up
Surviving rejection on Upwork, and how AI changed the proposal game
4) The business of free
How a no-fee app makes money, and why Tando isn’t profitable yet
Cooperation over competition in the Bitcoin space
Taking user experience and stuck transactions seriously
A few lines worth highlighting:
“In the Bitcoin space, when you’re actually solving the problem, money comes to you.” —Shams
“You have to put yourself in a market that’s outside your own.” — Shams
“Don’t just start jumping from one role to another when you don’t have the experience, because it will show.” — Shams
“There’s really no clocking out in fintech.” — Jeremy
“Of all the jobs I’ve gotten, it was all by recommendation.” - Jeremy
Where to find Shamsudeen:
LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/shamsudeen-adedokun
Yet (his indie app): https://byrde.app
Where to find me:
X: https://x.com/jeremyikwuje
LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/ijsucceed
Referenced in this episode:
Tando: https://tando.me
bitcoin.co.ke (every M-Pesa number becomes a Lightning address): https://bitcoin.co.ke
Upwork: https://www.upwork.com
Companies and names mentioned: Splice, IntaSend, M-Pesa, Bitnob, Tapnob, Mavapay, Chipper Cash, Payday, Grey, Patricia, Flutter, DevFest, Bitcoin++ and Bitcoin Nairobi
Full transcript
Lightly edited for clarity.
The story of Tando
Jeremy: Hi, guys. It’s another good time again to have a wonderful conversation with a very good friend. Last episode I had a conversation with Samson, where we talked about how you have to be responsible for whatever code you write. It doesn’t matter whether I write the code or you write it yourself. Today is going to be a bit different, and it’s going to be wonderful. It’s going to be more of a background story of a company based in Kenya that has been letting people spend Bitcoin like money in Kenya. And today with me is Shamsudeen from Tando. Shamsudeen is a software engineer, and he has been the guy from day one. Welcome, Shamsudeen.
Shamsudeen: Thank you, Jeremy. Thank you so much.
Jeremy: Okay, guys. So I met you at the Bitcoin dev meeting in Abuja.
In 2024, before the [African Bitcoin Conference] event started. People started talking about, you know, “Tando, Tando.” And I was like, what is Tando? Throughout that entire Bitcoin conference, people just kept talking about Tando, Tando, Tando. And that made me realize you guys built something really good. I never knew the guy who built the software lives in Abuja. I was talking with my co-founder (Onionsman), asking, who are these guys that built the app? It meant you guys really prepared for this event, because when it started we began to hear of Tando. And it makes sense, because you were able to get an initial user base who needed the service so badly. Nigerians coming to Kenya, many people coming to Kenya, they have Bitcoin, they want to spend it. So just tell me how the whole thing started from day one. As we met, I got to know you were the developer who really started the whole thing. So get us to the beginning.
Shamsudeen: Okay. So if anybody doesn’t know, Tando is an app that allows you to spend Bitcoin in Kenya. One thing everybody says when you tell them about Bitcoin or crypto is, “is it actually money? It’s digital money, but what can you use it for?” That’s been a question for a very long time, because if you want to spend your Bitcoin, you have to sell it. That kind of made people feel it’s not really money. It’s money, but not really spendable. So the whole magic is the founders, Jason and Sabina. Because Tando is an incredibly simple app, a utility tool, but it makes a huge difference. I’ve been a software engineer [professionally] for about five years now, I think this is the sixth year. And primarily I’ve been freelancing on Upwork.
Jeremy: Upwork. Okay, so you guys are the ones making all the freelance money.
Shamsudeen: Yeah, when you’re in Nigeria, everybody wants to be a global talent. You have to put yourself in a market that’s outside your own. And it was working, freelancing on Upwork. But as a freelancer, anybody who freelances will know this: most times you just need one or two clients, because if you have a good relationship with somebody, you’re going to keep working with them.
Jeremy: So how did they [Tando founders] meet you? How were they able to get you going? Give us that background story.
Shamsudeen: So I got an invite to check out a job post on Upwork. It was just a basic UI prototype, that was the little, a Flutter prototype. I was like, oh okay, this is just UI. So I did the UI. At the time there was another developer, Dedan; he’s Kenyan, and he worked on the backend. When I delivered the prototype, it was up to Jason, the founder, and he did the connection. This was just to test if it was actually going to work: basically, if a user sends Bitcoin to a specific lightning node, will they be able to pay out. And when it worked, it was like, okay, this is looking good. Then Jason came back and we started polishing the app more and more. After a couple of months, the app was in a very stable state and we were able to upload it to the stores. Around that time there was a very bad protest in Kenya, so the other developer [Dedan] was off for a while. I had worked on backend stuff before, so I stepped in, and that’s how I started working on the backend too.
Jeremy: So you came in as a mobile app developer, a front-end developer, just to build the front end. But then you ended up working on the backend and the whole stack of Tando in general. Makes sense. And the relationship was really good? It must have been really good working with them. It’s been almost two years now.
Shamsudeen: Over two years actually, two years and about six months.
Jeremy: That means you must have been very good working with them, and you’ve made so much progress. I think last year, when Sabina posted, was it one million transactions?
Shamsudeen: I’m not sure I’m at liberty to disclose the exact amount, but we’re way beyond that. Way beyond. Let’s say three or four million.
Jeremy: So people spend Bitcoin like that in Kenya?
Shamsudeen: Yeah. I think it also really appeals to foreigners. I was in Kenya for Bitcoin++ and Bitcoin Nairobi.
Jeremy: That was a few months ago. And you did not go with cash.
Shamsudeen: I went with cash, like one hundred and fifty dollars.
Jeremy: But I like the way you guys were able to strategically launch the app at a very good time, when there was an event happening in Nairobi. If you look at most Bitcoin products, they’re mostly in Nigeria. And there’s never been a major Bitcoin conference in Nigeria where people push a particular Bitcoin app in the country. There are all these apps, and they just come one day and say, hey guys, we launched a new app, and people start using it. But you guys were able to launch at a very good time.
Shamsudeen: Yes, it was the right idea at the right time. And this is why I keep saying the magic is in the founders, because making sure you launch something like that at the right time is very important. That, combined with reliability, and the two founders being based in Kenya.
Jeremy: Based in Kenya. And you guys have most of the grant money. Last year it was just back to back, right?
Shamsudeen: I think that’s one thing about the Bitcoin space: when you’re actually solving the problem, money comes to you.
Jeremy: Exactly. But the guys who’ve been having problems, I don’t know if maybe they’ve applied, or maybe it’s because of the commercials around their product.
Shamsudeen: In Africa in general, Kenya is, I think you must have seen this, they say Kenya is a Bitcoin country. Actually, like Nigeria, it’s a bit of a hassle. Crypto is technically banned, so all these crypto companies have to go through loopholes. I know there’s a gray area on crypto in Kenya, but Kenya is the Bitcoin country.
Jeremy: If not for the fact that we Nigerians are very resilient, this country wouldn’t have experienced the kind of innovation it has, because people just keep pushing. I remember the first time I launched my first company, it was a Bitcoin rewards app, where you could buy airtime, pay bills, and get cash back in SATs. That was the first thing I did with Bitcoin, to stack Bitcoin. We did over thirty thousand dollars in spend. And the day after we launched, they announced the news that Bitcoin was banned in the country. But that never stopped us from launching. That shows that even with those things, Nigerians have produced more innovations than many countries in Africa. It’s just the bad PR we have.
Shamsudeen: Yes, that’s true.
Reliability, IntaSend, and acquiring Splice
Jeremy: So tell me how you’ve been able to do a lot of backend work. You said you started from the front end and went to the backend. And I heard you guys acquired Splice.
Shamsudeen: Yeah. So for people who’ve been using Tando from the beginning, they would have noticed a brief period of downtime. Before, when you transacted with Tando, whoever received the Kenyan shillings would see an IntaSend alert, because IntaSend was the payment processor. Then IntaSend ran into some compliance issues and they were down for a while. And there were these two guys, Vlad and Colin. They built Splice, a payment processor on M-Pesa. Not lightning, just a payment processor. So that’s what we then started using. But because we did not want a situation like what happened with IntaSend, where Tando would be non-operational for a while, Jason made the decision to acquire them.
Jeremy: So basically you were acquiring the external processing infrastructure, so you have full control over your destiny.
Shamsudeen: Exactly. Because reliability is very important.
Jeremy: So important. I remember a company I was working for. They had a US partner issuing dollar accounts, you know how this whole thing can be. And the partner pulled the plug because of compliance issues, since so many yahoo boys were using the app to launder money. Can you imagine, they were holding about six hundred thousand dollars of deposits. And customers had withdrawn the naira out. So the company had a serious hole in their liquidity. They couldn’t continue, so they had to pause for like three months, and customers left. There was no trust anymore. By the time they came back, only a few customers were left. The company still has not recovered fully.
Shamsudeen: I think that reliability thing, I’m not sure if you know about Patricia? That’s probably one of the things killing fintechs in Nigeria too. That reliability issue has happened a couple of times. It’s very bad in payments.
Jeremy: Very bad. If not for Payday going down, I don’t think Grey would be this popular today. Because Payday was the app you used other than Chipper Cash. If you didn’t like Chipper Cash, Payday was the alternative. Then Grey was coming up, and now there’s Raenest [Geegpay] coming up. But it was Payday we all knew at that time.
Shamsudeen: Just because they had that issue with that one bank abroad. And remember, it was even Patricia, they said they had converted customer funds to their token. Yeah.
Jeremy: So when you guys acquired Stripe, I mean Splice, not Stripe. I remember, in the Bitcoin hackathon we did, there was Splice, Stealth Money, and Bitpension, which was our own project that came first. I think Splice was among the projects that launched in that period. So I recall how these guys all started. When you acquired them, how did the whole process go? Did you continue to work on Splice internally? Did you hire their engineers?
Shamsudeen: So Splice was pretty stable at the time it was acquired, so we didn’t really have to do much active work on it. We do still make updates, because we have to patch whatever holes we come across, and we’re planning on adding features. So we still work on it and maintain it. But it’s not being pushed for other people to come and use Splice. It’s fully internal right now.
Jeremy: But that wasn’t the goal of the founders of Splice.
Shamsudeen: Yeah. But when you think of what happened to IntaSend, because we’re processing a lot of volume, compliance issues, stuff with the government, Splice may end up having those same issues if we’re not careful. It’s just easier to avoid that when all the volume Splice processes comes from Tando.
Jeremy: I know a lot of deals that happen within Africa, the figures aren’t that high compared to what we hear globally. Do you have an idea how much the acquisition was? Was it life-changing?
Shamsudeen: Honestly, I have no idea. I tend to stay on the dev side a lot more. Maybe if you get the founders on your podcast.
The backend engineer’s job, and earning trust
Jeremy: So tell me about your team ethics, your processes in building products. You came in as a freelancer two years ago, building the front end. They trusted you to the point where they let you see their backend code. I used to joke that the backend engineer is the life server of the company, because he sees the money, he knows where the money is going, he can choose to change things. So they trusted you enough to give you access to the backend code. That means you must have been very good in how you worked with them.
Shamsudeen: Yeah. I think that’s one thing you learn as a freelancer. In the process of building software, you see a lot of devs who just build what they need to build, and they don’t really look into the user experience or the big picture. That’s what AI currently cannot do yet. I use the word “yet” because it’s going to happen over time, honestly. So as a freelancer, you learn people skills, and you learn to look at the whole big picture of the product you’re trying to build. My relationship with Jason and Sabina is really good. They’re really good people, easy to work with. So it just felt natural to keep extending the relationship. It wasn’t like, oh, I’m not sure I trust you to give you access to this backend code, or the server, or the Splice dashboard, which actually holds money. We just trusted each other over time.
Jeremy: That means you must have been very good, because there are some engineers I’ve worked with. There was one I worked with some time ago. At some point he was telling me he was busy, he didn’t have time to do this. I was like, what the hell, this guy is crazy. I just let him go. Let’s end this, I need somebody else.
Shamsudeen: But how did he tell you?
Jeremy: There was a formal agreement that this thing would be built in three months. We agreed on three months, with some iterations as to how things would go. It’s a new product, not an established one, so of course you expect changes. He needed money so badly. The guy was like, okay, yeah, I can do it. First part of the contract, this guy was doing fine, doing the work, the guy is talented. But the work ethic was bad. At some point he started saying there’s a new product he just got, one month into the project.
Shamsudeen: No, that’s bad. That’s really bad. As a freelancer, you can take as many projects as you want, sure. But you have to make sure to deliver on the job.
Jeremy: And you shouldn’t be telling a client you’re working with that you have other projects and you don’t have time for this anymore.
Shamsudeen: I mean, that depends on your relationship with the client. For me, for example, on Upwork, your job history is public. You can see how many jobs you have pending. So at the time when I started working with Tando, I had something else on Upwork, and I was very open, telling them, okay, I’m currently doing this. But I delivered.
Jeremy: You were very open from the onset.
Shamsudeen: From the onset. But I made sure to always deliver at any time I set, even if that meant sleepless nights, because nobody forced me to take the extra job. So sometimes it’s easy to think every freelancer is like that. Maybe that’s credit to me.
Advice for freelancers
Jeremy: What advice would you give to developers, some of whom will listen to this and might also be freelancers? Are you still a freelancer?
Shamsudeen: No, I don’t freelance anymore.
Jeremy: That means the money they pay you must be very sufficient. So what advice can you give to freelancers, people who are optimistic, maybe looking to become freelancers because of the opportunities we have right now? Some intend to do it just for the freedom it comes with. What’s your advice for freelancers in Nigeria?
Shamsudeen: The first thing I’d say is you need to put yourself out there. It’s very easy as developers to just stay inside.
Jeremy: How have you put yourself out there?
Shamsudeen: So I didn’t really do a good job of putting myself out there. I started learning to code back in like 2017, and I did not get my first freelance job until like 2020.
Jeremy: Wow. So you were hiding somewhere? Nobody knew you then?
Shamsudeen: Nobody, actually. I did not go to events. And one thing about the Nigerian tech scene is that there can be a lot of gatekeeping, which can discourage people. I did not like that. Upwork was very helpful in that aspect. I did not have to meet people. I was in school, in Ekiti, Ekiti State. So yeah, you have to put yourself out there. I know there’s a bit of imposter syndrome when you go into these events and you see guys talking. Like the last event, there was one guy [Sadiq] saying so many things I did not know. And then people were like, oh, you work at Tando, that’s really good. And I’m like, bro, what can I do? I don’t know what people are saying.
Jeremy: But over time, I got to know that some of those things are actually [bullshit]. Like this whole thing about, okay, this guy, if you see his LinkedIn profile, he’s able to say a lot of things he does. But you know, I was having a call with this kind of guy once. We joined the team, and he was the engineer I met there. I came in as an engineer before I was asked to lead the engineering team. And I discovered that this guy, I looked at his work, and I had been giving him respect earlier because I was working differently, I had my own project. I asked him to get something done. He could understand some basic terms, but I’d say your code has to do this, and the guy couldn’t explain exactly. He was just copying things from Stack Overflow.
Shamsudeen: Exactly. And that leads into the second thing I was going to say: don’t rush, and be true to yourself. Because being a freelancer, you’re going to have to put yourself in many shoes, wherever the money or the job is. You could start as a mobile developer and see a web development or backend job. If you genuinely cannot do it, do not rush and fill up your LinkedIn with those skills to make the client think you can. Everybody tries to buff up their profile, but there’s a wrong way and a right way to do it. If you do it and you end up getting the job and performing really poorly, it’s going to show on your record. It’s just a bad experience for the client and for you. I’m not saying you should wait until you’re one hundred percent skilled up on something to start. But don’t just start jumping from one role to another when you don’t have the experience, because it will show.
Dealing with rejection on Upwork
Jeremy: How have you been able to deal with rejections on Upwork? This can be very brutal.
Shamsudeen: Yeah, it can be very brutal. A lot of times you can send thirty proposals in a week. I used to do like two or three proposals a day, back when I was still applying on Upwork. You could send thirty proposals and only hear back on two. And it’s a hard back-and-forth. So it can be difficult. You also need to be able to tell, okay, if this person is starting to seem difficult, just don’t go into it. Some people can be difficult. Some you agree with, okay, I’m going to award the contract to you, and then they just ghost. So it can be brutal. But I like to think of it as a numbers game. Just keep doing it, and you’re going to come across one, one way or another. The algorithm has a way of pushing you when it sees you’re hearing back from people. And on the client side, when they post a job, they’re also looking for experienced people, and Upwork can suggest your profile and invite you to take a look at their job. I think that’s what happened to me with [Tando].
Jeremy: was it Sabina?
Shamsudeen: No, it was Jason. So just keep your chin up on all the rejections and keep going, and it’s going to come. Now I think it’s a bit more competitive because people are using AI to submit proposals, so it’s harder for clients to filter through them. You could post a job and in five minutes see thirty proposals, because everybody’s auto-generating them.
Jeremy: Five minutes? How exactly?
Shamsudeen: So people have Upwork bots. Upwork used to have an RSS feed, but I think they got rid of it. For every job that comes up on the feed, they feed it to an agent, ChatGPT, it spits out a proposal, and you submit it, in seconds. Many people do that. People even sell the bots. So it’s become harder for clients, and some of them just end up leaving. That’s why putting yourself out there now is more important, because when you go to things like DevFest, or write articles on Twitter, you see people like, oh okay, I have this job [for you].
Jeremy: Somebody once said eighty percent of all jobs aren’t advertised. Of all the jobs I’ve gotten, it was all by recommendation. Somebody just said, hey, I want you to join this call now. I remember the job I got. A friend of mine I met in Abuja just said, what’s up, are you available for a call? I said yeah, sure. He said join this call. And that was how I joined the company. No interview. I just joined. That was how I started working with them.
Shamsudeen: So you need to get to know people. You need to build people skills. Put yourself out there, build people skills. That’s very important. If you don’t want to do that, then you’re better off not being a freelancer.
Competition, grants, and how Tando makes money
Jeremy: Let me ask you a quick one. Do you guys plan to enter other countries? You’ve been in Kenya for a long time. Or do you want to fully hold that market?
Shamsudeen: So we kind of wanted to. But one thing about the Bitcoin space, you don’t want to compete too much.
Jeremy: Even if you do, it’s on the side. It’s like everybody helps each other.
Shamsudeen: That was something I recently learned. Knowing normal traditional companies, they would typically take the market share before the competition. But at events, there were times where, okay, this person is interested in building a Tando for his country, so, oh, you can walk him through how we did it. That’s how I met the founder of Tapnob. And I met a few others in the space.
Jeremy: BitSpender? Makes sense. I he just got a grant.
Shamsudeen: Congratulations to them. It’s nice seeing these guys.
Jeremy: I remember the BitSpender guy was having calls with Onionsman, trying to get ideas. And even someone from Mavapay was saying how the Bitnob guy [Benard Parah] was the one giving them advice, even if their product was competing with Bitnob in some areas.
Shamsudeen: So that’s a really nice thing about the Bitcoin space.
Jeremy: And Tando doesn’t charge fees. So how do you guys make money? Grants?
Shamsudeen: Right now we’re just really focused on the goal of making more people open to Bitcoin.
Jeremy: So how do you make money? Is it just spread? I know companies that don’t charge fees tend to make money from the Bitcoin spread.
Shamsudeen: Currently, we have the app, and we have bitcoin.co.ke, where everybody in Kenya now has a lightning address tied to their phone number. To claim your address, you pay a small fee. And there are actually transaction fees when you transact with bitcoin.co.ke. So there’s a bit of income from that, but it’s very little.
Jeremy: But again, everybody having access to Bitcoin doesn’t mean everybody actually has it, because you have to apply for it. Permission has to be granted.
Shamsudeen: Yes. We are not currently profitable.
Jeremy: So you guys need more grants. Because if you’re not profitable, that means you’re basically an NGO.
Shamsudeen: Yes. And again, credit to the founders, because it’s not easy. When you’re trying to get somebody to use your payments platform, I think that’s what we did at the beginning: not charging transaction fees or stamp duty and stuff. And when you tell Kenyans, oh, if you use Tando, you don’t pay fees, it’s lower than M-Pesa, they’re like, oh, really? And they end up using it. And then you’ve got another person into the Bitcoin ecosystem.
Jeremy: So you guys plan to grow by offering free service. Nobody can beat a free service, you can’t compete with free. So in the future, hoping you’ll at some point acquire customers, then find a way to make money. Is that the model?
Shamsudeen: Maybe. I can’t really speak to that. But as long as we achieve the goal of …
Jeremy: Bitcoinization…Hyperbitcoinization.
Shamsudeen: Getting more people onboarded. We’re happy.
Side projects, and taking reliability seriously
Jeremy: It’s been nice talking to you. One thing before we close: what’s your most valuable experience working with Tando that you think you can take elsewhere? In fact, let me ask, do you plan to build your own product in the future, or just keep working for other companies?
Shamsudeen: Oh no, I do plan to. I want to build my own product.
Jeremy: Within the finance space?
Shamsudeen: I’m currently working on two things on the side. The first is an indie app that lets you record your spending very easily. That’s actually on the App Store, it’s called Byrde. The second is a B2B SaaS for legal use, basically a utility to help speed up the work of lawyers. But something I’ve learned at Tando that I’m taking into both my app and my side project is that reliability is very important. Prior to Tando, I hadn’t worked on something that had as many users as Tando. You have to be really keen about the user experience. Just little things like loading time, or adjusting for the different types of users. You have to take user experience really seriously. And it’s becoming increasingly important that you don’t have to spend so much time on the code itself, you just have to make sure the experience is right.
Jeremy: How do you deal with stuck transactions, like a payment that is hanging? You have to take those things very seriously.
Shamsudeen: Yes, exactly.
Jeremy: That’s something that as a freelancer you don’t get to experience, because you’re not close to the project. You just did it and go. But now you’re close to the project.
Shamsudeen: That’s something we’ve been working on a lot lately: the best way to streamline or fix stuck transactions. Are you asking me how we handle it?
Jeremy: I just want to know. Working in fintech is totally different from working in any other software company, because you have to be reliable, you have to be up, you have to be available when they need you. There may be a stuck transaction at 2 AM, and they might call you to fix it.
Shamsudeen: Yes.
Jeremy: So actually, there’s really no clocking out in fintech. There are no official off-hours. But then as a CTO or founder, just tell your guys, I can call you anytime, and just be available when I call you.
Shamsudeen: Yes. So we have a somewhat manual flow of handling stuck transactions currently. Luckily, M-Pesa is a very reliable service.
Jeremy: Very big company.
Shamsudeen: But there was something that happened. I think M-Pesa was down briefly a few days ago, which caused a bit of trouble; we had a couple of stuck transactions. We do manual refunds, but that’s after our code has tried to retry the payment a few times. If it fails, then we do refunds. It’s hard to have automatic refunds when we don’t store users’ data. There’s no login.
Jeremy: I was about to ask you how you guys do refunds. So you don’t take KYC?
Shamsudeen: No.
Jeremy: You guys don’t take KYC. What’s the maximum transaction amount?
Shamsudeen: I can actually check, because it changes.
Jeremy: More than one thousand dollars, or less than that?
Shamsudeen: It’s around fifty thousand [Kenyan] shillings. That’s per transaction. We don’t do daily caps or anything like that. Per transaction is fifty thousand shillings.
Jeremy: Let me see [the app]. This is different from the current production. It looks sleek, man. Very sleek. Did you design this?
Shamsudeen: Not me. The designer did it. The designer is also a Nigerian. He’s in Lagos.
Jeremy: Thank you Shams [for showing up]. It was wonderful. I didn’t realise that was forty minutes.
Shamsudeen: Don’t worry, next time I’ll call you out to discuss monierate. I actually want to hear about that.
Jeremy: Cool. I’m always open, man.
Shamsudeen: Cool, man. Thank you. Thanks so much, man. Cheers.
Jeremy: Cheers.
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